[vdr] Local frontend - using XBMC strm vs vdr-sxfe

Discussion:

(too old to reply)

Dominic Evans

2012-03-09 09:59:51 UTC

Hi all,

Running vdr-sxfe as a local frontend using a pipe _should_ be as fast
(if not faster) than using XBMC over an http://localhost streamdev
connection. However, I seem to find the opposite to be the case.
vdr-sxfe still struggles with HD content, has pops and clicks in the
audio, crashes out every now again and generally has inferior
playback.

On my main frontend I have VDR running full time in the background
with no local frontend running. Then I have a bare-bones X11
configured with a simple .xinitrc that flips between running vdr-sxfe
and xbmc (as I prefer it for watching DVDs etc.). For both frontends I
am using VDPAU.

I have to use vdr-sxfe to interact with the menus, auto skip adverts
in recordings, do cutting, etc. But I'm increasingly finding myself
using XBMC and just a directory full of .strm files that point at
streamdev TS links, when I want to watch a live HD broadcast.

Does anyone have vdr-sxfe running flawlessly as a local frontend for HD content?

I just wish I could have the full VDR OSD, but within XBMC :)

Cheers,
Dom

Niels Wagenaar

2012-03-09 10:09:42 UTC

Permalink

Post by Dominic Evans
Hi all,
-- SNIP --
Does anyone have vdr-sxfe running flawlessly as a local frontend for HD content?

I use a fully updated yaVDR 0.4 and I don't have any issues with the
vdr-sxfe frontend.
For me, XBMC with the xvdr plugin seems to produce very ackward results and most
of the time I'm not able to watch anything because it's still
synchronizing the channels.

BTW, you do know that can play all kinds of media (including DVD's)
with vdr-sxfe right?
I use vdr-sxfe because it's one of the few frontends which allows
mediaplayback without
any additional plugins.

Post by Dominic Evans
I just wish I could have the full VDR OSD, but within XBMC :)

That'll never happen ^^

Post by Dominic Evans
Cheers,
Dom

Regards,

Niels Wagenaar

Dominic Evans

2012-03-09 10:22:28 UTC

Permalink

Post by Niels Wagenaar

Post by Dominic Evans
Does anyone have vdr-sxfe running flawlessly as a local frontend for HD content?

I use a fully updated yaVDR 0.4 and I don't have any issues with the
vdr-sxfe frontend.

Hmm. I have the same (yaVDR) running on an ION330 box. The channels I
most have problems with are 1080i HD at bitrates of around 9-10 MB/s.
Perhaps you could post your ~/.xine/config_xineliboutput to
http://gist.github.com or http://paste.ubuntu.com ?

Post by Niels Wagenaar
For me, XBMC with the xvdr plugin seems to produce very ackward results and most
of the time I'm not able to watch anything because it's still
synchronizing the channels

Yes, I don't use the xvdr plugin as it is still very buggy. I simply
take the playlist of channels from streamdev (available at
http://example.com:3000/ on your vdr box) and generate .strm files [1]
which I access from a vanilla XBMC Eden via the Videos --> Files
browser.

Post by Niels Wagenaar
BTW, you do know that can play all kinds of media (including DVD's)
with vdr-sxfe right?
I use vdr-sxfe because it's one of the few frontends which allows
mediaplayback without any additional plugins.

Yep I did know about these, but XBMC provides a much richer experience
for DVD, Blu-ray playback. e.g., cataloguing and display of a library,
automatic display framerate switching etc.

---

[1] http://wiki.xbmc.org/index.php?title=HOW-TO:Play_internet_video_and_audio_streams#The_.STRM_file_method:

Niels Wagenaar

2012-03-09 10:38:35 UTC

Permalink

Post by Dominic Evans
Hmm. I have the same (yaVDR) running on an ION330 box. The channels I
most have problems with are 1080i HD at bitrates of around 9-10 MB/s.
Perhaps you could post your ~/.xine/config_xineliboutput to
http://gist.github.com or http://paste.ubuntu.com ?

I use an Asus AT3N7A-I mainboard with the TT 3650-CI which is an
ION330 configuration
as well and I frequently watch 1080i channels from my provider (Canal
Digitaal) without
any issues at all. The only issue I have is that the buffering is
slower then my old Reel
Multimedia ExtensionHD configuration, so it takes somewhat longer to
get a picture
(max 5 sec).

My xineliboutput configuration is default, I didn't make any changes
to it what so ever.

Post by Dominic Evans
Yes, I don't use the xvdr plugin as it is still very buggy. I simply
take the playlist of channels from streamdev (available at
http://example.com:3000/ on your vdr box) and generate .strm files [1]
which I access from a vanilla XBMC Eden via the Videos --> Files
browser.

I'll check this tomorrow and post my experience using this method.

Post by Dominic Evans
Yep I did know about these, but XBMC provides a much richer experience
for DVD, Blu-ray playback. e.g., cataloguing and display of a library,
automatic display framerate switching etc.

XBMC does indeed provide a much richer experience and it's a very
powerfull frontend. However, personally I don't like the PVR integration
in its current state and it produces all kind of WAF-issues ;)

Regards,

Niels Wagenaar

Jonas Bardino

2012-03-09 15:11:42 UTC

Permalink

Post by Dominic Evans

Post by Niels Wagenaar

Post by Dominic Evans
Does anyone have vdr-sxfe running flawlessly as a local frontend for HD content?

I use a fully updated yaVDR 0.4 and I don't have any issues with the
vdr-sxfe frontend.

<cut>

I'm running yavdr unstable-vdr packages on an Asrock 330HT box (ION)
with xubuntu oneiric. I tuned the xineliboutput config a lot before I
got anything bearable for HD channels. However, it turned out the the
video buffers were the main problem, so most of the rest can use
defaults.
My current settings are dumped below:
0|~ > egrep -v '^#' /tmp/config_xineliboutput|egrep -v '^$'
.version:2
audio.device.alsa_front_device:default
audio.device.alsa_mixer_name:Master
audio.device.alsa_mmap_enable:1
audio.output.speaker_arrangement:Surround 5.1
audio.synchronization.av_sync_method:resample
video.output.vdpau_hd_deinterlace_method:half temporal
video.processing.ffmpeg_thread_count:4
effects.goom.fps:25
effects.goom.height:576
effects.goom.width:720
engine.buffers.audio_num_buffers:500
engine.buffers.video_num_buffers:250
engine.buffers.video_num_frames:22
engine.performance.memcpy_method:libc

I launch vdr-sxfe with a command that overrides video_num_buffers,
since it keeps getting silently reverted to 250 in the conf:
0|~ > grep xvdr /tmp/open-vdr-sxfe.sh
vdr-sxfe xvdr+tcp://localhost:37890 --post tvtime:method=use_vo_driver
--audio=alsa --fullscreen --video=vdpau --reconnect --buffers=1000

The result is still not perfect with occasional glitches but it's not
bad and after fighting for months with just getting HD channels
running I'm quite happy.

I hope it helps.

Cheers, Jonas

Dominic Evans

2012-03-09 15:28:07 UTC

Permalink

Post by Jonas Bardino
I launch vdr-sxfe with a command that overrides video_num_buffers,

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll add the buffers cmdline to my
vdr-sxfe startup. Interesting that you're using xvdr+tcp://localhost
rather than the default unix pipe. Intentional?

Post by Jonas Bardino
The result is still not perfect with occasional glitches but it's not
bad and after fighting for months with just getting HD channels
running I'm quite happy.

Bio H

2012-03-09 15:34:36 UTC

Permalink

i also have struggled for this holy grail
xbmc would really be the ideal interface for me (just cant beat this
flexibility - try playing a .bin / .img over a network which is .rar'd -
cant do this on vdr)
i like the xbmc plugins and flexibility, for the most part. :)
for last few months i've been trying xvdr, but i have to say i have mixed
feelings/results on this, and it's not very stable (from my experience)
the deprecated vnsiserver/client has fallen off the radar by now... not
many options other than streamdev/strm files.

i found i kept getting warnings about insufficient buffers with the setting

engine.buffers.video_num_frames:22

, so i bumped that up to 35

only other setting i'd suggest re-examining is the

engine.performance.memcpy_method:libc

at least on my system, kernel is faster. :) autodetect should be fine for
this... ?
(it should test all of them)

Post by Dominic Evans

Post by Jonas Bardino
I launch vdr-sxfe with a command that overrides video_num_buffers,

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll add the buffers cmdline to my
vdr-sxfe startup. Interesting that you're using xvdr+tcp://localhost
rather than the default unix pipe. Intentional?

Post by Jonas Bardino
The result is still not perfect with occasional glitches but it's not
bad and after fighting for months with just getting HD channels
running I'm quite happy.

Yeah its great having HD channels playing and recording. It just makes
me a little sad that XBMC playback of them is flawless, but with xine
we seem to have to settle for "only occasionally glitches" ?
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Jonas Bardino

2012-03-09 15:59:55 UTC

Permalink

Post by Bio H
i also have struggled for this holy grail
xbmc would really be the ideal interface for me (just cant beat this
flexibility - try playing a .bin / .img over a network which is .rar'd -
cant do this on vdr)
i like the xbmc plugins and flexibility, for the most part. :)
for last few months i've been trying xvdr, but i have to say i have
mixed feelings/results on this, and it's not very stable (from my
experience)
the deprecated vnsiserver/client has fallen off the radar by now... not
many options other than streamdev/strm files.
i found i kept getting warnings about insufficient buffers with the setting
engine.buffers.video_num_frames:22
, so i bumped that up to 35

I got the warnings, too, but ended back at 22 when it didn't make a
visible difference. This is on an Atom box with scarce resources, so ymmv.

Post by Bio H
only other setting i'd suggest re-examining is the
engine.performance.memcpy_method:libc
at least on my system, kernel is faster. :) autodetect should be fine
for this... ?
(it should test all of them)

I started out with auto detect but then set it to libc which it
selected. The start up delay for auto is probably small, so I guess it's
a safe bet in most cases.

Cheers, Jonas

Jonas Bardino

2012-03-09 15:50:44 UTC

Permalink

Post by Dominic Evans

Post by Jonas Bardino
I launch vdr-sxfe with a command that overrides video_num_buffers,

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll add the buffers cmdline to my
vdr-sxfe startup. Interesting that you're using xvdr+tcp://localhost
rather than the default unix pipe. Intentional?

That's a good question actually. I have experimented a *lot* with xine
and xineliboutput to get sound through on the AAC/LATM encoded channels
here in Denmark, so it may just be something that made a difference at
some point along the way - I don't remember.
I'm pretty sure my playback glitches are from the combination of
unstable-vdr and fairly new LATM support in ffmpeg/xine, but maybe I'll
investigate if the pipe works better at some point.

Post by Dominic Evans

Post by Jonas Bardino
The result is still not perfect with occasional glitches but it's not
bad and after fighting for months with just getting HD channels
running I'm quite happy.

Here XBMC is absolutely unstable and always has been, while vdr-sxfe
runs quite well. I haven't been able to get sound out of XBMC TV since
the channel switch to LATM audio, either. It should be noted that I mean
XBMC with TV over the various pvr plugins.

Cheers, Jonas

Mika Laitio

2012-03-10 13:51:51 UTC

Permalink

I thought blu-ray is dead format not supported by Linux movie players.
Does XBMC support it somehow?

Mika

LACARRIERE Jerome

2012-03-11 20:43:40 UTC

Permalink

vdr-sxfe provides a media player based on xinelib with an access to blu-ray
(including menu support)

Post by Mika Laitio

I thought blu-ray is dead format not supported by Linux movie players.
Does XBMC support it somehow?
Mika
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Tony Houghton

2012-03-09 13:42:49 UTC

Permalink

On Fri, 9 Mar 2012 09:59:51 +0000

Post by Dominic Evans
Running vdr-sxfe as a local frontend using a pipe _should_ be as fast
(if not faster) than using XBMC over an http://localhost streamdev
connection. However, I seem to find the opposite to be the case.
vdr-sxfe still struggles with HD content, has pops and clicks in the
audio, crashes out every now again and generally has inferior
playback.
On my main frontend I have VDR running full time in the background
with no local frontend running. Then I have a bare-bones X11
configured with a simple .xinitrc that flips between running vdr-sxfe
and xbmc (as I prefer it for watching DVDs etc.). For both frontends I
am using VDPAU.
I have to use vdr-sxfe to interact with the menus, auto skip adverts
in recordings, do cutting, etc. But I'm increasingly finding myself
using XBMC and just a directory full of .strm files that point at
streamdev TS links, when I want to watch a live HD broadcast.

IME sxfe works better watching "live" than a recording, but I'm not sure
whether it affects how often the audio glitches. Such things in vdr-sxfe
seem to come and go at random. Last time I watched an HD recording the
picture regularly "jerked", like you get when watching 24fps video very
crudely converted to 25fps by repeating a frame every second. But "live"
TV seems quite smooth.

The difference between vdr-sxfe and XBMC you're experiencing could be
due to differences in the deinterlacing setting. You didn't say what
your graphics card is, but the sort of low-power fanless card most of us
like to have in an HTPC can't manage the higher quality options. The
default for libxine is "temporal", which my lowly 8200 is too slow for
in HD (but OK in SD), so I had to use this setting:

video.output.vdpau_hd_deinterlace_method:bob

I was amazed at how good it looks, although I've only tried it at 720p
output so far, not at 1080p. I thought I was going to have to add at
least a GT210 PCI-E card, but it looks like that's going to be
unnecessary.

Dominic Evans

2012-03-09 14:15:06 UTC

Permalink

Post by Tony Houghton
The difference between vdr-sxfe and XBMC you're experiencing could be
due to differences in the deinterlacing setting. You didn't say what
your graphics card is, but the sort of low-power fanless card most of us
like to have in an HTPC can't manage the higher quality options. The
default for libxine is "temporal", which my lowly 8200 is too slow for
video.output.vdpau_hd_deinterlace_method:bob
I was amazed at how good it looks, although I've only tried it at 720p
output so far, not at 1080p. I thought I was going to have to add at
least a GT210 PCI-E card, but it looks like that's going to be
unnecessary.

I actually currently have deinterlacing disabled on both xineliboutput and XBMC.

Tony Houghton

2012-03-09 16:25:11 UTC

Permalink

On Fri, 9 Mar 2012 14:15:06 +0000

Post by Dominic Evans

Post by Tony Houghton
video.output.vdpau_hd_deinterlace_method:bob
I was amazed at how good it looks, although I've only tried it at
720p output so far, not at 1080p. I thought I was going to have to
add at least a GT210 PCI-E card, but it looks like that's going to
be unnecessary.

I actually currently have deinterlacing disabled on both xineliboutput and XBMC.

AIUI interlaced fields are encoded as a pair in one field, so for most
video players "disabled", ignoring the interlacing flags and treating it
as as normal frame is the same as "weave". You usually get quite
noticeable combing artifacts with that. "Bob" is more or less an
alternative way of doing next to nothing; it displays each field in turn
without any attempt to combine them.

Dominic Evans

2012-03-09 16:39:06 UTC

Permalink

Post by Tony Houghton

Post by Dominic Evans
I actually currently have deinterlacing disabled on both xineliboutput and XBMC.

Ah, actually looking at config_xinelibeoutput, I think vdr-sxfe
automatically enables some vdpau deinterlacing by default (half
temporal I think?) and the setting I was looking at on the
xineliboutput config isn't relevant. I've switched to bob at your
recommendation anyway :)

I haven't noticed any combing artifacts into XBMC, but as I have the
'match display rate to match video' configured, its possible that XBMC
is just feeding the TV 1080i output and letting it handle the
deinterlacing.

Simon Baxter

2012-03-09 16:31:18 UTC

Permalink

Post by Dominic Evans
I just wish I could have the full VDR OSD, but within XBMC :)

Yeah, shame about that. It's unfortunate the development on XMBC isn't
anywhere as active or mature as VDR.

I recently got really lazy and installed yavdr-0.4 after 7 years running
everything from sources. It's simplicity of use is great. I use
xineliboutput to watch DVDs, movies and live/recordings of ATSC HD and only
use XBMC for all the web content (freecable, hulu etc). Works pretty well
(apart from some regular xbmc crashing - which I really must look into at
some point).

Steffen Barszus

2012-03-10 06:04:56 UTC

Permalink

On Fri, 9 Mar 2012 09:59:51 +0000

Post by Dominic Evans
Hi all,
Running vdr-sxfe as a local frontend using a pipe _should_ be as fast
(if not faster) than using XBMC over an http://localhost streamdev
connection. However, I seem to find the opposite to be the case.
vdr-sxfe still struggles with HD content, has pops and clicks in the
audio, crashes out every now again and generally has inferior
playback.

My experience is that xine frontend runs usually more stable, then
vdr-sxfe. If you run sxfe without HUD enabled, video is pretty ok, but
gets jerky if you have OSD open. With hood enabled you get this skippy
behaviour described in some other answer.

Post by Dominic Evans
On my main frontend I have VDR running full time in the background
with no local frontend running. Then I have a bare-bones X11
configured with a simple .xinitrc that flips between running vdr-sxfe
and xbmc (as I prefer it for watching DVDs etc.). For both frontends I
am using VDPAU.
I have to use vdr-sxfe to interact with the menus, auto skip adverts
in recordings, do cutting, etc. But I'm increasingly finding myself
using XBMC and just a directory full of .strm files that point at
streamdev TS links, when I want to watch a live HD broadcast.

Interesting solution.

Post by Dominic Evans
Does anyone have vdr-sxfe running flawlessly as a local frontend for HD content?

I used to use xine as local frontend as its more stable.

Post by Dominic Evans
I just wish I could have the full VDR OSD, but within XBMC :)

Most likely will never happen.

To answer some points raised in other answers:
- default deinterlacing with yavdr is temporal_spatial for SD content
and bob for HD content
- testing HD deinterlacing settings with 720p stations is pointless as
p means progressive aka not interlaced
- you can set the deinterlacing settings in the webfrontend (for all
frontends, not 100% sure about XBMC)
- the xbmc version of yavdr 0.4 isn't optimal anymore, we just did not
get around to provide some updated version, current eden with pvr
runs a lot more stable, but has other issues (which we did not came
around yet to trace them)
- there is a new kid on the block called softhddevice, which is local
frontend only and based directly on ffmpeg/libav with no libxine
involved. Its only a littlebit older then 2 months, those maybe not
ready for primetime - but in my opinion providing a better experience
then the old xine frontends already. For that oneiric or precise as
base is recommended - but this is nothing we can rollout yet. local
frontend only is not that much of a backdraw, if you take into
account that you can use streamdev with vtp streaming and a local vdr
on the client

Hope that provides some insight.

Lars Hanisch

2012-03-10 08:39:01 UTC

Permalink

Hi,

Post by Steffen Barszus

Post by Dominic Evans
I just wish I could have the full VDR OSD, but within XBMC :)

Most likely will never happen.

You'll never know. :)

Haven't looked into XBMC yet, but dbus2vdr (0.0.4) can export the OSD as PNG files and signals changes via DBus.
Disadvantage: you can't use the OSD of the output-plugin anymore (which you may not need anymore).

vdr just can use one OSD-provider at the time. Mostly it's instantiated in the "MakePrimaryDevice" of the
output-plugin. dbus2vdr can create its OSD-provider which will delete the present one, but can't re-create the old
provider (haven't tried yet calling "PrimaryDevice()->MakePrimaryDevice()" yet).
And it's not possible at the moment to let dbus2vdr recreate its provider. But this will come.

The first use case for this OSD export is a headless vdr. But it may be worth trying for your setup, too.
Please take a look at the README of dbus2vdr line 168ff.
https://github.com/flensrocker/vdr-plugin-dbus2vdr/blob/master/README

What you have to do:
Listen for dbus-signals on interface de.tvdr.vdr.osd from object /OSD and send the usual keystrokes to vdr to open OSD
and navigate (you can do that also viy DBus, see line 119 in the README).
"Open" will inform you about the position and id of the OSD, "Display" sends you a filename to the PNG and its
position relative to the position of the OSD. After "Close" all files will be deleted.
Every PNG between Open and Close have to be displayed over the last ones since only differences are reported.

It's a really young feature and never really tested, and I would like to get some input about this.

Lars.